JPEG XL

I don't think changing words is sufficient to substantially improve bad things in the world like racism and sexism, but I do think it can help to avoid propagating subconscious connotations, like "whitelist" vs "blacklist" which helps to culturally perpetuate the idea that white=good and black=bad which is probably something we should avoid since it's not a huge effort to use alternatives like "allowlist" and "blocklist".

Some aspects of language like grammatically forced binary genders are much harder to change than some specific vocabulary though.

Finnish should become the new world language

Heh, I looked and Linux still has master branch 😄 Btw, I also found some comment from Linus if someone is interested https://www.reddit.com/r/github/comments/hbnccr/with_the_master_branch_deemed_racist_and_even/

Esperanto 🙂

I refuse to use a romance language so far removed from Latin...

As an early 2000s kid, I've only ever known whitelist and blacklist in terms of programming. It was only a year or two ago, when some news came out about changing it, that I realised the meaning. So like many things on this topic, the newer generations wouldn't even be aware of the connotations if people stopped linking them in the first place

I always thought Italian is closest to original Latin.

I'd say these days many more people hear "Whitelist" in regards to a Minecraft server than they do in a history lesson

different Romance languages are closer to Latin in different ways. Romanian retains some grammar Italian lost (though also gained some Slavic grammar), Sardinian is closer phonetically, etc.

Interesting

One day I'm going to make a conlang that is as similar to Latin as possible while being more gender neutral.

Most attempts at Latinish conlangs focus on "making the grammar simple", which IMO is a somewhat boring goal that makes the language very un-Latin-like.

I would retain grammatical gender, but work backwards to the Proto-Indo-European animte/inanimate gender system.

The thing with connotations though is that they're largely subconscious. I assume nearly anyone using terms like "whitelist" and "blacklist" does not have any racist intentions, but still, perpetuating such terms does have some impact on how our neurons end up getting wired which I do believe can lead to undesired side effects on some subconscious thought processes. Then again, when I think about 1984's doublespeak, the main problem in that dystopic society is not language but power relations.

It's a game you can never win... The bar my sister works at has 2 trans workers who apparently slack off constantly. The boss wants to fire them, but can't due to fear of being labelled as transphobic. But anyway, we live in a world of compromise... ~~Apart from JXL!~~

You're reminding me of my friend who wanted to invent a new language for a game he was making. Issue is the species was draconic so largely involved more gutteral sounds no human could reliably understand xD

lol

Hmm, in my language if I say "I see it black" it means "it will be bad" kinda like "I see the future bad/black". And in my country there weren't almost any black people in past and still aren't. So this black = bad wasn't created because people didn't like black people. More like black = dark night = scary

isn't blackness fundamentally a "bad" thing for humans, irrespective of race or whatever? e.g. being scared of the dark

It seems to me like this association black = bad was created without even knowing black people exist. And then black people "appear" and suddenly it's not politically correct and language needs to change.

"Suddenly, there was a black man"

I don't mean it literally. Just from the view of people living somewhere where they maybe didn't even see black people around.

Yeah, I know, just sounded funny to me

What you wrote sounded like something from Bible. "let there be black man"

Exactly haha

Well, I think it's something like primal fear.

Let's just rename white people to beige people and black people to brown people. Problem solved.

stops using words so those words are locked into the negative connotation so any future use of the words are more negative than they should have been

seems like DEI and woke makes us more racist

Just this list and that list

things like Yin and Yang also exist

I envy Chinese that they are so far away and different culture they don't have to deal with this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang#Meanings > Yin 陰 or 阴 — Noun: ① [philosophy] female/passive/negative principle in nature, ② Surname; Bound morpheme: ① the moon, ② shaded orientation, ③ covert; concealed; hidden, ④ vagina, ⑤ penis, ⑥ of the netherworld, ⑦ negative, ⑧ north side of a hill, ⑨ south bank of a river, ⑩ reverse side of a stele, ⑪ in intaglio; Stative verb: ① overcast, ② sinister; treacherous > > Yang 陽 or 阳 — Bound morpheme: ① [Chinese philosophy] male/active/positive principle in nature, ② the sun, ③ male genitals, ④ in relief, ⑤ open; overt, ⑥ belonging to this world, ⑦ [linguistics] masculine, ⑧ south side of a hill, ⑨ north bank of a river

there is an ambiguity about the penis here ...

happy to see that for them: female, hidden and sinister are associated

incel philosophy I guess

nah the exact same culture war stuff going on in the US is going on all over the world.

My fantasy destroyed again 😄

Here in Sweden, I've seen a funny pattern. Reactionaries will complain about leftists supposedly importing ideas from the US, and then 5 seconds later those same reactionaries will spout whatever was on Fox News last week.

"We never had racism in Sweden before leftists started introducing American language policing [..] did you hear about 20000 illegal Haitian immigrants eating puppies in Springfield? Deplorable people, no wonder Haiti is a shithole"

Funny, I just recently learned what reactionary means from book three body problem in the section about Chinese revolution

The exact meaning is context dependent but yes, reactionaries are those against the revolution. In western culture, it has a meaning close to _conservative_ (against the changes). In China, it was used against the ennemies of the regime.

Reactionaries generally in a western context want to "go back" to some (often at least partially imagined) past

I think it was first coined in the context of the French revolution. Basically whenever you have activists you'll also have reactionaries 🙂

should we create a #marxism channel ?

Because we generally don't have revolutions anymore but we still have reactionaries for some reason 🤔

personally I am a radical liberal

Maybe a #politics channel

any progressive movement generally causes reactionary movement, doesn't really matter if it's in the context of revolution or reform or even just some awareness raising campaign

I have a lot of difficulties to grasp the english concept of "liberal", _libéral_ usually convey the meaning of _right wing_ here

I would rather not talk about politics at all than having specific channel. I am afraid what political talk can do to communities.

the English concept is closer to the original concept, honestly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_radicalism

remember that the US was the first country founded on liberal princples, even though it failed to live up to them

Personally I agree, it’s just because there seems to be a lot of politics talk in this channel

It was really only in the late 19th century that the idea of liberty was hijacked to refer to free market maximalism

It maybe helpful to split it off

that's rare

I kinda believe we will have political talk today and then it will die out and people will talk again about something else. If political channel is created I have worry about nonending political discussions that can turn toxic.

liberalism is a pretty broad thing that can mean anything from progressive social-democracy to hardcore laissez-faire neoliberalism

sqrt(liberal) ?

thx, I'm reading

When thinking about liberalism, I recall Cicero's commentary on natural law and later thinker's extension of those ideas. That we can reason ourselves to certain things that are seen fundamental, such as human rights, and it is the role of governments to create laws of the state that come as close as possible to enforcing the natural law.

from what I understand, part of the confusion is social liberalism vs economic liberalism

In Australia the “liberal party” are the right wing ones and the left wing ones are the “labour”.

But, laizé-faire capitalism is the logical result of radical liberalism. All markets unregulated except the market for violence.

So when ever I hear liberal I think right wing

This is interesting. It touches universal morality. I personally believe morality and sense of right and wrong is relative a depends on culture.

« les libéraux » are economic liberals (little economic interference from the state, as in taxes and the like) but not necessarily social liberals (e.g. gay marriage)

generally liberal parties are socially progressive/left-wing and economically conservative/right-wing

Difference is?

I don’t really do politics that much

Spend too much time waiting for -e 11 to finish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism

the biggest confusion really is that both social liberalism and economic liberalism reasonably well founded on liberal ideals. So much of the west is now steeped in liberalism, that absolutely everything exists within a liberal context. So for example in the US, regular conservatives (not the recent personality cult that has taken over the republican party, though) are inherently prone to liberalism because their conservatism exists within a well established (flawed) liberal history, while even progressive democrats *also* are prone to liberalism, just different flavors of it.

does laizé-faire capitalism and free market maximalism result in maximizing liberty? No? Then it is not radical liberalism.

The ideas come from liberal sources, but are flawed and failed.

French speakers (cc <@1051137277813870592>) will be amused to learn that the right-wing liberals in Switzerland call themselves the FDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Liberals_(Switzerland)

(understandably, their name in French is PLR instead)

The people who call themselves radical liberals usually think so. Ayn Rand and her followers, for example.

so typically liberal parties are defending gay rights, women rights, minority rights, the right to abortion, freedom of speech, etc etc (i.e. social progressive stuff), while also defending private property, privatisation of public services, reduction of workers' rights, tax cuts for the rich, etc (i.e. economically right-wing stuff)

Funny, my vision of the state is that it should make laws at the exact opposite of the _natural law_... 😅

well named 😄

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Swiss_party_politics_2007_en.png

there doesn't need to be a whole channel because Discord has "Create Thread" as an option on messages although people seem to not know/remember this is even a thing that can be done

interesting to split voters from leaders

Btw, I discovered that it's interesting talking politics with ChatGPT. Then I dont have to even worry to offend it 😄

Or maybe a forum

This was acknowledged back in th 30s when many different liberal thinkers came together to think about the future of liberalism, whence neoliberalism was proposed as liberalism without laizé-faire. The project sorta fizzled out but there you had even people like Hayek talk about how it was actually good if the government was to have a stronger more active role. Ordoliberalism grew out of that meeting, as I recall. (note: somehow, the term neoliberalism was re-used in the 70s to mean something completely different)

Anything is ChatGPT can be quite biased politically because of its training and fine-tuning

you can ask chatGPT to pick a side in the preprompt if you want to

I sometimes try to make these kind of 2D projections to categorize political ideologies

true, but it generally at least follows logic. so even if i say something radical or controversial I can discuss with it logically and without emotions.

And, probably best not to encourage it by tempting people. So far this has been miraculously constructive unlike most servers

I guess it depends on what you mean by natural law? 😛

interesting !

For me natural law = stronger eats weaker

Eat or be eaten ?

yeah I usually don't go around simply describing myself as a radical liberal, because I know it will confuse people. But in a discussion, I like to get in to it.

question, isnt radical liberal same or similar as libertarian?

quite the opposite I would say, libertarian is more ... conservative anarchist 😄

well that's funny, because libertarian is also a term with different meanings in different places. You will find that there are some places where 'libertarian' means people on the left 😄

I must agree. It's difficult to discuss if we cant even trust meaning behind words.

so @Lonnie if you're a radical liberal in the historical sense, I'd put that more or less in the neighborhood of "social liberalism", would you agree with that?

agreed, but the meaning is something we build together... like a spec

yeah, so basically the opposite 😄 In ancient philosophy (such as described by Cicero but also others) natural law is what could be considered universal rights and wrongs. According to Cicero, even the Gods are bound by natural law! That is to say, they are bound by what is right and wrong according to universal moral norms.

yeah, but imagine how long would it took to discuss something if we first need to define everything because every person has different idea what particular word actually means 😄

Interesting ! thank you for the reference ... Does it means you think there is an absolute morality ?

yes, I would say that social liberals are one camp I have much in common with. I have some funny market ideas too, though :P

sounds like a textbook moralistic fallacy 😁

i'm myself kind of in the Trotskyism / Luxemburgism region of my chart, but I can get along just fine with anyone not in the top row of the chart

that is a hard question. But for example, it's hard to imagine a moral code that says that it's A-OK to kill someone who has done no wrong. So that feels universal.

I like these ideas as a basis for my thought, but I am rather practical minded.

(well maybe also not so much with folks in the rightmost column)

I lack some knowledge of trotsky, stopped at marx and hegel

bottom left of the chart

Sure, I appreciate universalism too... but absolute (top down) morality feels akward, letting little space to progress (for the better :D)

Here is a funny economic idea: private ownership is A-OK and cool, if you made something or bought something, it belongs to you. But! Any natural scarce resource belongs to no one. Thus, land ownership cannot be fundamental. If you want to monopolize a piece of land, or extract minerals from the earth, you ought to have to compensate the rest of humanity, as we rightfully have an equal claim to all the earth's resources.

(I have to leave ! have fun :D)

farewell

I like to distinguish personal property, private property, and public property. The difference between personal and private property is for example the difference between a house you live in, and a house you own but just as an investment (to get rent and/or to speculate on the housing market).

I thought about the chart from Jon, I dont quite understand how can anarchism be in the same category as "full minority rights". If there is no goverment and everybody can to what they want there is nothing protecting these groups and giving them rights. But I guess it can be understood also that everyone has the same rights. But nobody to enforce them.

Now, libertarian is a weird term. It was coined by some influential anarcho-communist whose name I have forgotten (he basically was against everything civilization, so I guess you can call him an anarcho-primitivist as well), and was for the longest time only used by anarchists of various sorts, who usually had a disdain for liberalism in all its forms. Then came Murray Rothbard, and popularized the idea of anarcho-capitalism, capitalism without a state (only works if you redefine state from the classical definition, so I find the whole thing kinda questionable). Murray Rothbard, who was also connected in various anarchist circles, called himself a Libertarian. And caused classical liberals and liberal conservatives to become aware of the term used in a pro-capitalist sense. That happened somewhere around the 60s. Now, at the same time, the term socialism started to get a really bad reputation due to the increasingly mainstream conflict with the Soviet Union. Which caused many moderate socialists and social democrats to start calling themselves liberals. So, after about two decades of this the terms had effectively drastically changed in meaning.

The changed perception of the terms liberal and libertarian only happend this way in the US.

No socialist in the US calls themself a liberal

That's because the usage of the term socialist covers a lot less of the socialist-liberal spectrum than it used to.

It's the same in Dutch: we say "witwassen" (white wash) for money laundering and "in het zwart werken" for illegal/not-declaring-taxes work. It's to me hard to say to what extent words like that have an 'innocent' origin or if there are some colonialist undertones there...

About half of the self-proclaimed liberals in the US would call themselves social democrats, or at least social liberals, would they live in Europe.

I think social democrats here in Sweden would very much not want to be called socialists either :p

Socialist sounds dangerously close to communist to people 😄

and words always change or get re-analyzed by native speakers all the time anyway. Many many words have fallen out of favor due to gaining connotations people didn't like.

The Nordic countries have their very own history with social democracy. They use the term a bit differently from other European countries, where social democracy basically emerged as a kind of evolutionary socialism, as many former Marxist socialists found Marx's claims to not quite go together with observations.

I need to read my great great grandfather's book on this at some point

He was active in the Swedish worker movement and wrote on the topic of whether social democracy or leninism was the better inheritor to Marx's ideas

ah, so he actually appears to come a bit from the evolutionary socialist camp I assume...

(incidentally, my family history is hilarious politically, with lots of communists and anarchists and even a neonazi, I'm like the first generation close to center...)

Here's a funny anecdote: my great uncle, and old communist, when we talked about the 2020 US primaries, told me that his favorite candidates were Sanders and Buttigieg. Sanders because of his politics and Buttigieg because he was the only person who seemed to read up on the issues before debates)

I also liked Sanders (i am not american btw). Not even because of his politics but because he seemed to genuinely care to change something for the good of everyone.

Btw, nowadays you sometimes find far-right extremists calling themselves Libertarians, which I think can be blamed on Hans-Hermann Hoppe, a student of Rothbard. I despise that guy. His ideal society is basically that of the Taliban, at least it technically fulfills all the requirements for his perfect society. He doesn't care about personal freedom at all, like Rothbard he just hates the state (in its current form at least), but is way more conservative than Rothbard ever was. He often calls himself a paleo-libertarian. Such an absurd term...

Funnily enough, if you follow Hoppe's definition of what a state is, EU member states are not states by his definition, as they all are subject to outside international courts and you are allowed to leave them anytime. He really didn't think his stuff through...

This is why I remove the bottom-right corner from the diagram, I agree it is a rather impossible combination. The original anarchism (not the more recent "anarchocapitalist" flavors of it) is in my view a bit utopic but not impossible: it aims for a classless society where there is no ruling class that requires state oppression to remain in power. Before the agricultural revolution, that kind of society was quite common: there was basically no inequality since when you're a nomadic hunter-gatherer and there are no farming surpluses to hoard, the amount of inequality you can get is rather limited. Socialists/communists have the same end goal but assume there will first be a need for a workers' state (i.e. where "the 99%" become the ruling class that is oppressing "the 1%", instead of the current situation where it's the other way around) before you can arrive at such a classless society. Essentially anarchism and communism is the same ideology in terms of end goal but the disagreement is about how to get there.

I've seen on Twitter "Libertarian" parties from different US states get into slapfights over this. I think it's the New Hampshire Libertarian Party that's gone way off the deep end into the alt-right rabbit hole. Meanwhile the Louisiana Libertarian Party were like "it's bad if the government deports millions of people actually".

Haha, yes.

> Essentially anarchism and communism is the same ideology in terms of end goal but the disagreement is about how to get there. and here is why I can be friends with many (though, not all) self-described anarchists and communists and socialists. We (most of the time) have goals in common, so we don't come off as evil to each other, we just disagree on the best plan. As opposed to fascists, who I am unable to be friendly with, because their goals are utterly abhorrent.

isnt this problem with the whole bottom group? not just right corner i just dont think anarchy is compatible with concept of rights

for example wild animals live in kinda anarchy, I dont think they have rights among each other

Speaking of Hoppe, I once had as a teacher, the person who operates the Swedish Von Mises institute. It was two classes, data science and "big data". It was slightly fun seeing always having to restrain himself from arguing that the data shows that climate change isn't real.

Well, he has some beliefs but tried to be neutral and act as proper teacher, that sounds good, no?

I guess it depends on how you view the nature of rights and the state: is the state there to give/protect your rights, or to allow some people to take away rights from others? If you assume that the base situation is that nobody has any rights until the state bestows them upon you, then sure, anarchy and rights are incompatible. If you assume that the base situation is that everybody has all rights until someone takes them away, then it's not incompatible, but rather a matter of ensuring that nobody can accumulate enough power to take away rights from others.

What if you see the role of the state as preventing bad actors from taking away your rights?

Oh, yes, you are right. I believe that people dont have any rights without goverment to bestow them. So thats why it doesnt work for me.

Then, without a state, the rights still exist, but nothing prevents them from being taken away.

Another thing. I believe concept of rights doesnt make any sense without some kind of enforcer of said rights. For example, if nothing prevents me from killing you (or punishes me after), then you have no right not to be killed. But thats just what I think.

that's like the opposite of what I think, heh

I think you wrote that you believe in universal morals, no? I think these two believes go quite hand in hand.

Very true. That's why I'm not an anarchist.

I think it's a bit of both currently: the state does protect some rights and prevents bad actors from taking them away, but in the end it is also an instrument used by bad actors to suppress rights. A capitalist state will generally attempt to justify itself by defending those rights that don't threaten capitalism (say property rights), while at the same time not really prioritizing other rights (say the right to access to health care) and even taking away yet other rights (if those rights are clashing with the interests of rich, powerful people).

Btw, I think for thinking about right it's useful to also thing about obligations. Again, only my belief, but I think every right necessarily brings oposite obligation. And there cant be a right without obligation. Kinda like two sides of math equation. Example: Right not to be killed = Obligation not to kill people. Right for free healthcare = obligation to provide free healthcare (for example by higher taxes)

not at all. If rights are universal, why would they go away just because there isn't a state? You would still be an evil murderer, even if nothing prevented you from killing someone.

I notice that you are using both negative and positive rights as examples here

I maybe wrote that badly. I meant to say your belief in that everybody has right even without goverment goes hand in hand with concept that every human has some universal set of morals

I do think it is possible to have a society eventually where such an enforcer does not need to be explicit in the form of police/courts/jails etc but there just is no incentive to do crime and a lot of social pressure to not do crime. We're quite far away from such a society though, which is why I am no anarchist who believes it suffices to just destroy the state and that's it.

ah, yes. I was saying that I disagree with what you think. The "then you have no right not to be killed."

Now i understand. Then that begs the question what exactly are rights. If there is nothing stopping me from murdering someone and there is no punishment. I dont see what exactly is right in this case. It seems to do nothing. You said "evil" murderer. Thats question of morality. I would be murderer, agree. Some would call me evil based on their sense of morality. Or you would say I am evil universally becuse of universal morality. But I just dont see the effect of rights.

oh, so basically society where everyone have the same morality and agree what is right or wrong to do and act upon that (act morally right) because there is no incentive to do crime (morally bad things) like you say heh, kinda like hivemind 😄

It's not that far-fetched, people tend to agree mostly on what is right or wrong: killing or hurting people is wrong, distributing resources fairly is right, helping people who are suffering is right, etc. In a world where there's war, inequality, etc, there are plenty of incentives to do bad things in an attempt to improve your personal situation (or that of people close to you, like your immediate family etc), but in a world where the baseline is peace, equality, etc, I think you could have a pretty sustainable society that is "anarchist" (in the sense of there not being a ruling authority that enforces stuff). Obviously the harder question is how to get from the current world to such a different world 🙂

Shame we dont have some super powerful simulator of human population... I would like to see how would different society living under different political regimes or systems like you described turn out really.

it does sound as though the origins of “white-washing” have the potential to be objectionable, but maybe zwart labour is more innocent, e.g. maybe it just refers to how it leaves the authorities “in the dark”

> Why do Communists only drink herbal tea? > Because proper tea is theft!

lol

In IrfanView, does anyone else get lag when zoomed under 100%? I have Resampling turned off, and zooming in or at 100% is fine, but for some reason going to 75% causes stuttering

<@207980494892040194> sorry, if you were trying to speak, clicked on voice channel by mistake 😅 I don't even have a mic, nor headphones on... 😄 (worse, I struggled to quit the channel)

It's alright, when you get a mic, feel free to join 👍 . I've learned a lot of cool things talking to people on this server.

We are talking about color profile shenanigans, apparently not many programs can display xyb icc profiles correctly

It might have something to do with improper rendering intent

Well, considering where it all is going, fragmentation of tech is kinda ineviable. Which is a shame, I would like to see "humanity's achievements in tech", not "X side's achievements in tech".

<@277378565304090636> continuing from <#803574970180829194>

i have gotten i2p kinda working however it's complaining about the websites being "not secure"

Modern browsers want to scare users who browse a website without HTTPS

is i2p secure without https

It's end-to-end encryption already

HTTPS is just redundant for it

I personally choose to run i2pd

Tried to promote JXL on I2P as well http://ramble.i2p/f/Tech/5556/why-apple-uses-jpeg-xl-in-the-iphone-16-and-what-it-means

As long as people justify hurting other people "for the greater good," we aren't going to change or get anywhere. It's why socialist revolutions don't ever actually result in less inequality, because nothing fundamentally changes until people fundamentally change and stop justifying harm to other people

Societal change doesn't come from the top down. It's from the bottom up

Even the worst government have to brainwash their people to manufacture consent and legitimacy so the majority of people go along with the program

Also, having a right to something doesn't mean you have a right to be served for free. It means others aren't allowed to molest you and stop you. Like for example, having to pay someone to build water purifiers and produce drinkable water isn't a violation of anybody's rights. But polluting the water supply, is.

Having to pay for medical supplies to treat people isn't a violation of people's right to healthcare. But trying to prevent competition in order to artificially raise the price, and forcing people to get approval for everything, is.

No, it's because jpegli doesn't write the jpeg app14 tag to signal to apps not to apply the ycocg reverse transform

Shouldn’t it do that then?

There's been an open issue about it for a long time. 👍 if you wanna.

It's a tiny metadata box that basically says "this JPEG is RGB"

https://github.com/libjxl/libjxl/issues/3512

That was not the issue I was encountering. If you joined the voice chat, I was showing how apps *are* reading the color profile, but some apps got the rendering intent wrong. I can confirm this with GIMP (one of the few apps that got it right). The APP14 marker matters for Apple devices and adobe products, both of which I don't have/use.

And also the thumbnailer on linux

and miscellaneous other software that randomly trips over the lack of expected metadata

what thumbnailer are we talking about?

the one that makes every thumbnail look green

I'm not sure off the top of my head

Here's a list of programs I've tested so far: Not color managed: qimgv, jpegview Renders colors incorrectly: ~~paint.net~~(fixed since 5.1!), classic windows photo viewer Works just fine: Photoshop* (with APP14), fossify, Google photos, gimp, Windows photos, thorium, and waterfox

I know IrfanView regularly flags rendering intent errors when viewing most JXL files. Namely greyscale I see every time

It also decodes all bitdepths to 24bit which always annoys me when comparing to a pallete PNG....

why is jon sneyers on apple maps

What? So where does it say I am?

Northwest of Brussels

Kind of creepy, I wonder where it got my address and why it puts it on the map. But OK.

Oh, I assumed it was just a strange coincidence of a place being named the same

Nope, that is where I live

Though I am currently in Berlin for the 105th JPEG meeting

and this is why I use privacy oriented stuff lmao

ONLY APPLE CAN DO

Ill be running a linux phone before long at this rate lol

[av1_kekw](https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/758892021191934033.webp?size=48&quality=lossless&name=av1_kekw)

A phone number is also displayed

That "Jon Sneyers" shop is categorised as for IT and computer services

Oh, makes sense. Officially I am a one-man business and work at Cloudinary as a contractor, which was the easiest way to do it since I am the only Belgian person working for Cloudinary. So they probably got the info from some official registry.

Be careful about some people visiting and asking for how to use cjxl

First of all - beware of fab

?

mood

<:This:805404376658739230>

Same, but then I checked his website and the town name matched

<https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/releases/tag/zfs-2.3.0-rc1> * RAIDZ Expansion ([#15022](<https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/pull/15022>)): Add new devices to an existing RAIDZ pool, increasing storage capacity without downtime. * Fast Dedup ([#15896](<https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/discussions/15896>)): A major performance upgrade to the original OpenZFS deduplication functionality. * Direct IO ([#10018](<https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/pull/10018>)): Allows bypassing the ARC for reads/writes, improving performance in scenarios like NVMe devices where caching may hinder efficiency. * Long names ([#15921](<https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/pull/15921>)): Support for file and directory names up to 1023 characters. * Bug Fixes: A series of critical bug fixes addressing issues reported in previous versions. * Supported Platforms: * Linux kernels 4.18 - 6.11, * FreeBSD releases 13.3, 14.0, and 14.1.

new OpenZFS release is looking pretty dope

I’m hearing good things about CephFS https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/113209263886599784

What he doesn't mention is that CephFS is really really complicated

Most people I know who have tried to set up CephFS clusters have given up because they just couldn't get it to work reliably.

It can be very robust, if set up correctly, across multiple hosts, but I see no reason to use for a single host NAS or anything like that unless you value flexibility above all else.

ZFS on the other hand, while not super easy, is pretty good at never losing your data even if you don't put a lot of effort into doing it "right".

these days I'm actually a bit skeptical of highly flexible storage systems, because literally all the big data loss bugs in btrfs and bcachefs stem from the flexibility, while zfs's design comes from trying to make it as reliable as possible

I would probably use Ceph if I was making something big, with petabytes of storage needing to be highly available and durable.

Oh, and I think Ceph has just, way worse performance than ZFS? So for a Ceph deployment to have the same perf as a single host 6 drive ZFS deployment, it would probably need several hosts and way more drives (and very high speed links between those hosts)

Makes sense that it is slower than ZFS since single host is definitely not one of the intended use cases of Ceph

i dont understand the expansion part

it already works fine (im on zfs 2.1)

can already add new vdevs to existing pools

it's to make a single vdev bigger

some people just want to add a single drive at a time rather than a whole vdev

just dont do it like that lol

I guess the problem is it has to change the raid layout

but data still stripes over the vdevs in a pool

so should just add a new vdev

they should add draid expansion

So I can start with a 10 disk draid vdev and slowly expand it to a 100 disk vdev one disk at a time 😄

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/452572560987521034/1293285144324739153/hey-there-adobe-720-.mp4?ex=6706d126&is=67057fa6&hm=212fdd0488471c7c8a8eff776dbad569d36273d1ce850f0e395d28da5f07a49e&

that's what it feels like

I like the nervous laughter

C programming course and they're having us use a process of first making a flow chart, then writing pseudocode, and then actual code. They want us to hand in the flow charts and pseudocode for inspection of course. And can I just vent and say that flow charts *suck* for expressing many kinds of ideas and algorithms?

https://youtu.be/G9FRadIkkE0 Clickbait titles going wilder.

I've seen the video and i don't think it's clickbait

i wish linux were an actual alternative for me

You supposedly can disable the snapshots thingy in the settings.

And the Copilot stuff via the registry on Home editions or via Group Policy on Pro.

I doubt it'd be actually mandatory; that's not going to play well in confidential environments.

yeah, 'mandatory' and 'on by default' are very different things (I haven't seen the video and I don't keep up with Win11 so I can't make a full statement).

It's "mandatory" in that it's baked into Windows 11 File Explorer, which, uh, basically means "no shit"? Where else they will bake it?

https://www.pcworld.com/article/2483886/us-govt-may-force-google-to-sell-off-chrome-android-or-both.html

I wish there was an alternative to Linux 😂

Are they recalling Windows because it's so defective?

I use macOS

same

macOS is embarrassingly bad

In most ways worse than windows

It's nice that it's unix compatible

But it's even worse than FreeBSD

It's just freebsd with iTunes permanently grafted on

i prefer it SIGNIFICANTLY over windows

You don't want windows, but you don't want to leave it, looks like a stockholm syndrom

imo Linux > macOS > Windows

if most of your daily tools are open source (like libreoffice, chrome or firefox, etc.) switching to ubuntu is just a matter of having a new wallpaper

and a DE that stutters, and constantly out of date apps, and forget about brand new hardware

only reasons i use macOS is because 1) family all use Apple so annoying lock-in stuff, and 2) I'm used to macOS's VoiceOver vision accessibility software

you are blind ?

almost

I like osx ux, I dont like the lack of apps, wayland and portals integration would be really nice

oh and gpu passthrough for vms lol

the open world struggle so much to reach mainstream features, I understand that special needs are better supported by companies likes apple

open source also struggle to make software that just "doesn't suck" lol

also just wondering why are the usernames all slightly different colours?

open source is usually in the "very janky but it just about works" category

the moto of a french linux community could be translated as : the road is lengthy (ie. bumpy/difficult) but the way is free 😄

GIMP still looks like a mess nowadays

gimp will always be a mess

at least they get some of the basics right

Being able to export as an uncompressed PNG is a killer feature

You know windows comes with linux these days

I know what Wsl is

Everyone thinks I'm crazy for saying this but windows 11 is an improvement... aside from all the online BS and fake system requirements BS

Open source is like eating homemade food vs corporate McCrap

Yeah, I think Windows is pretty damn bad but it feels like more freedom and possibilities than Apple :(

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/security/advisories/mfsa2024-51/ oops

one day Mozilla will finally rip out their entire media stack and make it rust

They did and called it Servo

sadly no, video is handled by gstreamer lmao

why

The bigger the better like lossless AVIF

Bigger means higher quality <:trolldoge:1200049081880432660>

any reason why FLIF is 2.2 MB at E60 and 2.3 MB at E100?

For the same reasons jxl -I 70 is smaller than -I 100

I know that doesn't answer your question. Both formats are magic to me 😅

but E is specifically meant to be effort, where I is an tuning parameter

In the av1 server, the topic was about bit-exact jpg -> jxl

Is it true that "it's not worth the CPU cycles" to do such a thing?

I doubt that but I don't have the technical knowledge

it's not worth the CPU if you're only going to be decoding back to JPEG, however CPU cycles aren't everything

the main thing is that it lowers storage requirements

unlike other formats, where they require storing BOTH a legacy JPEG and a version in the new image format

if you want to use AVIF you need 1) a JPEG for older clients 2) an AVIF if you want to use JPEG XL you only need 1) a JPEG to JXL lossless transcode if the client needs a JPEG you can convert the JPEG XL back to JPEG

if it's a commonly loaded image you may want to cache the original JPEG which negates the storage space benefit

however it would be really helpful for something like Internet Archive where they need to store A LOT of images which are infrequently accessed

no

also this lol

yo guys can I add some test images to the repo?

and then they fired all the engineers and gave themselves a raise. And donated the rest to themselves for a tax writeoff.

its not so bad tho, igalia has been doing some great work, servo is actually pretty fucking fast now, it;s not quite caught up in terms of speed, and no where near interms of features, but this last year has been massive for servo

https://files.catbox.moe/umhhao.mp4

With no help from mozilla

Mozilla has no interest in making gecko or servo an alternative to chromium, either the browser or the embedded framrwork

Mozilla doesn't care about gecko or rust or servo or xiph or anything anymore other than sucking it dry for everything it's worth.

Higher effort sometimes means "trying more things" and then you expect it to be strictly better than lower effort. But sometimes higher effort means "do something in a different way that will take more CPU/memory and compresses better on average".

I know [pepehands](https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1075509930502664302.webp?size=48&quality=lossless&name=pepehands) it's probably a good thing that mozilla ditched servo

servo doesn't really know how it wants to handle image formats yet, it uses the image-rs crate but it won't be viable going forwards, but for now it's "good enough"

Like for lossless, libjxl efforts 1,2,3 are three completely different methods, and any of them can be the one with the best compression.

I'm a bit late, but the compression scales with the original jpeg size, so optimized JPEGs are actually smaller still. As for CPU cycles... ```wintime -- cjxl --disable_output derpy.jpg --num_reps=500 --num_threads=1 JPEG XL encoder v0.11.0 0185fcd [AVX2,SSE2] Note: Implicit-default for JPEG is lossless-transcoding. To silence this message, set --lossless_jpeg=(1|0). Encoding [JPEG, lossless transcode, effort: 7] Compressed to 21296 bytes including container PageFaultCount: 1410702 PeakWorkingSetSize: 19.23 MiB QuotaPeakPagedPoolUsage: 33.02 KiB QuotaPeakNonPagedPoolUsage: 6.5 KiB PeakPagefileUsage: 43.62 MiB Creation time 2024/10/11 13:14:34.526 Exit time 2024/10/11 13:14:41.813 Wall time: 0 days, 00:00:07.287 (7.29 seconds) User time: 0 days, 00:00:01.578 (1.58 seconds) Kernel time: 0 days, 00:00:05.625 (5.62 seconds)``` I can *theoretically* compress 500 `910 x 461` JPEGs (Around Web size) in a little over 5 seconds of CPU time at 23% savings, enough said

And it's now I realise there's no MP/s readout for transcoding

Around 50MP/s on a single thread, for a direct camera image it's 30 MP/s (20MP photo x 5 = 100 / 3 seconds of CPU time) ```wintime -- cjxl --disable_output -v -j 1 --num_threads=1 "C:\Users\jonat\Documents\DCIM\Camera\IMG_20240928_223344.jpg" --num_reps=5 JPEG XL encoder v0.11.0 0185fcd [AVX2,SSE2] Read JPEG image with 4115840 bytes. Encoding [JPEG, lossless transcode, effort: 7] Compressed to 3275.4 kB including container PageFaultCount: 650386 PeakWorkingSetSize: 411.6 MiB QuotaPeakPagedPoolUsage: 33.02 KiB QuotaPeakNonPagedPoolUsage: 48.6 KiB PeakPagefileUsage: 1.033 GiB Creation time 2024/10/11 13:23:33.476 Exit time 2024/10/11 13:23:37.274 Wall time: 0 days, 00:00:03.797 (3.80 seconds) User time: 0 days, 00:00:00.765 (0.77 seconds) Kernel time: 0 days, 00:00:03.015 (3.02 seconds)```

Decoding is a little harder to measure since --disable_output decodes to pixels instead of transcoding, but just as fast as the smaller image encoding for the 20MP one ```wintime -- djxl -v Test.jxl --num_reps=5 --num_threads=1 Test.jpg JPEG XL decoder v0.11.0 0185fcd [AVX2,SSE2] Read 3275423 compressed bytes. Reconstructed to JPEG. 5120 x 3840, geomean: 52.804 MP/s [51.33, 53.89], geomean: 11.054 MB/s [10.74, 11.28], 5 reps, 1 threads. PageFaultCount: 101320 PeakWorkingSetSize: 81.77 MiB QuotaPeakPagedPoolUsage: 33.5 KiB QuotaPeakNonPagedPoolUsage: 7.43 KiB PeakPagefileUsage: 327.4 MiB Creation time 2024/10/11 13:27:19.050 Exit time 2024/10/11 13:27:20.927 Wall time: 0 days, 00:00:01.877 (1.88 seconds) User time: 0 days, 00:00:00.140 (0.14 seconds) Kernel time: 0 days, 00:00:01.718 (1.72 seconds)```

Uhhh, but yeah... Lower storage and transfer sizes, can transcode back on the client

Yeah this guy is way too heavily focused on CPU cycles.

I find it ironic since he's in the av1 server, if you're so concerned about CPU usage, then just stick with h264 for the next 20 years. 😂

"Get back to me when AVIF hits 360 MP/s"

fine, jpeg to jxl is not instant, but can avif do it?

technically that whole discussion was against server rules

Hmmmm

Missing kde

yeah, this is th e running joke, chrome really did well with this one

you can mostly ignore what rootatkali says, he has no concept of other people having different needs or wants then he does.

might as well delete this server as jpeg xl obviously has no interest what so ever

<:YEP:808828808127971399>

"wasm is useless" meanwhile GB's site has been using it for months now without issues

GB's site?

https://giannirosato.com

though it may have been removed

Yeah, I'm only seeing AVIF or JPG

<@703028154431832094> which page had the jxl images?

https://giannirosato.com/blog/post/corpus-lossy/

ah I mean the one with the wasm, iirc it had a csgo picture

Oh the hardware encoder comparison page

ah this one https://giannirosato.com/blog/post/nvenc-v-qsv/

gotcha

Wasn't expecting 2 screenshots to be the end result, but still neat haha

It's not useless but I don't want to and shouldn't have to load a wasm module to use the best image format in prod

NVIDIA 5000-series very lol

Meanwhile AMD focused on brotli https://gpuopen.com/brotli-g-sdk-announce/

isn't this the thing that claims to be compatible with regular Brotli decoders, but actually fails to be so?

I bet Nvidia's support for Deflate, Snappy, and LZ4 isn't incompatible with those formats 😄

it doesn't claim to be compatible with regular Brotli decoders it just says that it *could* be made to be compatible: https://github.com/GPUOpen-LibrariesAndSDKs/brotli_g_sdk/blob/main/docs/Brotli_G_Bitstream_Format.pdf

pretty sure they used to claim it

And making it compatible would've been trivial

(note how they say "a slight modification to the Brotli-G bitstream format"

they claim it on their front page... > Existing optimized Brotli decompression functions (CPU implementations) should be able to decompress the Brotli-G bitstream, while more optimal data-parallel implementations on hosts or accelerators can further improve performance.

I was trying to find where they said that but then realized it was on the announcement blog post. they should probably add a correction

https://www.threads.net/@sapphicxidiot/post/DBB89hevFQf

<@386612331288723469> explain this https://www.wired.com/story/jia-tan-xz-backdoor/

We. The North Koreans.

\s

I still prefer the company that makes sure their GPUs aren't a useless brick that requires a glibc binary to use

AMD?

so I have this horrid android box running arch I wanted to bench libjxl on but the read speeds from storage are so slow, it actually significantly influences the results lmao. if you buy an old android box for a small linux machine, make sure it at least supports usb3.0 that seems to be the greates "in general" inidicator.

what are some of the lower end devices libjxl has been benched on I wonder

raspberry pi is the first that comes to mind

I think someone here had been converting images using cjxl in termux?

A HP compaq mini https://quackdoc.github.io/blog/hidden-jxl-benefits/#:~:text=A%20HP%20compaq%20mini

<:KekDog:805390049033191445>

speaking of that machine, the drive on it died, I was thinking about looking for some kind of flash based IDE storage for it

Awwwr

I actually forgot it was you who made the blog, I just spent 5 minutes finding it again and went "Oh wait a minute"

<:kekw:808717074305122316>

I need to rehost the images for it, never got around to doing so

Quack, awesome article!

🦆

argh why so many sections 😦

completely different formats, but the box file format pt 3 is used by all, even nonstandard extensions

re: https://discord.com/channels/794206087879852103/794206170445119489/1295727739210436609 Or, you know, here's a free VST that just integrates Lame... https://github.com/ArdenButterfield/Maim

This plugin doesn't even promise the "infinitely desirable sounds of crappy mp3s", DOA tbh <:KekDog:805390049033191445>

lol

I am now getting AI summaries on youtube 🙃

with YT bleeding money, I don't know why they keep spending it on stupid shit like this, I wonder if they actually get paid for this

It's presumably one of Google's in-house models running on their own servers.

> Unfollowed many artists who jump the ship to so-called X-wannabe Bluesky. As you wish!

I aint touching bluesky with a 10ft pole lol

Oh they've jumped many times

I think I've unfollowed about 50 just now

wat

literally can't be worse than twitter tbh

that's not really true, quite a few popular artists seem to have stopped posting on twitter for more than a year

would be nice if Bluesky's media handling system wasn't horribly awful

the forced resizing of images is already bad enough but I'm almost 100% sure that when you upload an image it internally gets converted to a quality 100 4:4:4 YUV JPEG that is then used for all other encodes by the CDN

well for PNG uploads at least, I didn't do any testing for JPEG uploads.

lmao

imo the problem with any social media platform is that the main thing most people want from it is a critical mass of users so you actually have an audience and reach many people — that's in the end the only advantage these platforms have over, say, just posting stuff on your personal website. But getting a critical mass to adopt anything new is nontrivial, especially if the same kind of functionality is already available on another platform — so the first one to do something generally gets a kind of monopoly. This is why decentralized FOSS alternatives to facebook/twitter/instagram/etc generally tend to fail: they just don't get critical mass. It doesn't matter how much greater they are from a technical pov, or from a privacy pov, or from a transparency pov, or from a free speech pov: if there's no critical mass of users then it remains something basically only used by us nerds, and fine for communication within that bubble, but not so great for reaching the masses. And as a corollary, the big platforms can afford to basically stop innovating, making dumb decisions, adding only dumb features, throwing more ads at everyone, etc. As long as they keep having the critical mass of users, people will have to keep using their thing anyway, whether they like it or not.

AI is quite popular nowadays, just make an AI-based "no outrage" filter, which would filter all outrage baits and posts of the people getting outraged. Might make Twitter actually usable, I want to see actual content, not manipulated into being angry.

Mastodon was actually doing well, until people realized that mastodon itself is complete and utter trash

It turns out when you can't reliably see what other people post, it's not so good

At least the chronological order works on X; not on Facebook at all

What's the maximum on Bluesky? It's 4096 * 4096 pixels on X

highest res image Bluesky's CDN will give is 2000 x 2000

Twitter used to be pretty great for image sharing

But not anymore sadly

Really crappy since some artists already upload images at medium (visually low) quality

Depending on content there are some great latforms that allow uncompressed up to very large sizes, but they tend not to stick around because it gets expensive fast if a critical mass of users is reached

Art shouldn't be posted on twitter/facebook/DiscordApp as a primary source. Use a proper gallery site like deviantArt and many others. Social media is only for feed, letting people know that there's a new art on your actual gallery. Basically a big thumbnail.

name a gallery site that isn't terrible

Absolutely any gallery site is infinitely better than just throwing it into twitter. Even freakin' Newgrounds is better than twitter.

Itaku is pretty good

Mostly nsfw though lol

Pxnxs erection is not allowed on DeviantArt but spreading a vxlvx is allowed

I'm surprised they allow anything

Newgrounds is actually good for quality without worring about the limitation of NSFW

But non-photographic only

pixiv is popular too but the censorship has to follow the Japanese laws

https://www.pixiv.net/terms/?page=guideline

~~boorus~~

I could upload a >500 MB image to Wikimedia Commons

And only furries it seems 🤦‍♂️

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Bitwarden-Open-Source-Concerns Responce from Bitwarden team vary from "it's legal" to "it's been closed-source for years already, nothing's changed, no need for concern".

Their "solutions" are absolutely for geeks only

Sometimes geeks do lose their mind and persuade for things hostile for casuals

Does anyone have account for Manjaro forum? I'd like to tell them some info regarding the HEIC problem in https://forum.manjaro.org/t/gwenview-cant-open-heif-images/169652

I don't have an account, but I am interested in what you want to share

Finally, I was able to log-in and post reply: https://forum.manjaro.org/t/gwenview-cant-open-heif-images/169652/64

Good to know

How does libjxl deal with such "invalid" ICC profiles?

Or is it only a problem with the heif format?

Nclx is a heif/avif thing

It's like the color encoding enum in jxl, so in principle you could have something similar in jxl where the primaries or transfer function is signalled as some value that is not in the spec

Though libjxl will never produce such a thing

While probably video encoders do that all the time because they're often clueless themselves what the actual colorspace is they're working in 🙂

Very nice

There are not few phone manufacturers whose software produces such weirdly invalid/broken files. I wonder why that is, questioning dev competency aside

We've been getting a lot of issues about that recently. Probably them trying to get UltraHDR to work

Even without UltraHDR

I mentioned this a week or so ago in that github issue, but samsung has produced invalid JPEGs for maybe more than three years now

The github issue mentioned a samsung m51 I believe and I tested with my S23

I think I remember I had to edit some bytes in a hex editor when hatch converting one of my friends’ images to JXL for a backup

my brother just got a galaxy book 3 ultra, man, HDR on that thing looks so bloody good. HDR in general is so underrated.

I want a good HDR monitor so bad

You can change it to full width in appearance

wait ??? why did discord jump me back to a message from 2023

Same happened to me just now lmao

we are probably gonna save up and try to get a nice TV for my pops. there are some decent oled 4k tvs for around 2.5k cad now

I am very much hoping that microled will not only be market ready in 10 years

Right now the HDR experience on linux isn't so good that I have to have one right now, but maybe next year...?

KDE and gnome both have basic HDR support. KDE's support... its usable. somewhere inbetween windows 10 and current windows 11

as for gnome I have no idea

I theoretically have an HDR display via my steam deck, but even when booting a distro with Plasma 6.2, HDR support is not advertised/recognised by the system

But for games it is very nice

isn't the steamdeck's HDR a fake HDR?

and movies

iirc it also has pretty poor sRGB coverage

It's a 1000 nits OLED display and gamescope has support for displaying HDR. Or what do you mean?

oh the regresh I forgot that exists

Ahh, alright

I keep forgetting the oled screen one exists because I just want one with VRR lol

But even if it weren't HDR, the brightness makes a difference nonetheless

ye, man I just love oled HDR so much

Same same

I definitely need to buy one at some point

I had a friend once who was talking about how they made their own HDR backgrounds in Blender... Turns out it wasn't HDR, the OLED just had such good contrast with most of the render being black, they didn't know what real HDR meant

Which is why OLEDs are so nice

If only the 100% brightness were better

did you maybe click my link in <#805176455658733570> ? it was to a specific message even though Discord really doesn’t make that obvious

(this link, on the other hand, isn’t)

we flashbanged ourselves because of the calibration screen [av1_kekw](https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/758892021191934033.webp?size=48&quality=lossless&name=av1_kekw)

Half the time Discord doesn't even get to the message, it just gives up scrolling halfway

<:discord:1294466779686371368>

Maybe, I do have a tendency to forget things I did mere seconds ago, so...

https://x.com/RedLi8ning/status/1848843939866202316?s=19

``` #*****#_ ( {*# # ### #_ _#* **#** .__#___ ``` For some reason, I couldn't find an algorithm that best converts images to ASCII art, taking into account the real geometry of the letters, so I had to invent it myself from scratch. (The algorithm processes only the geometry of transitions from black to white, it is not suitable for simple photos and art)

``` __ #######_### .###{ \*** *#= ####~.=##,(*# ,#=,, ,=#,##########,,##? +##,, ##*# *######,#** + - ~####- _######=___ _# _####, _,_] *#*?##### # }#*##=*#_#** _,##*]###, ### _ ##*##*]### ### *### *####=[__[ ,*-** #*_ *####+_#}_#,### #]=_, =###= ####[**##,###=* ^####=,#** ***##+ ### * ### #### ~######~ ```

that looks sick

` + #######=#=*@ +-@###########+* =-#*++#*#+*+*@+@@ #=*%%##%%##%##**% .#*#%****#@%@%*##%# @#**@%@%==--@.*@#-@%% @@##@#%+=#=--:*-*#@#%% #@@%#%#+-:*:--*+%=@%% @ %#%%%=--#+@-=#%%%% ##%%%@#-:::%#@%% #@%@%%*##*@#%% @+=@===#++%=@##=@*+-+-*- -=*#---**-=--=-=#*+*.=+---- ##*%+-========-@:-@***+====== =#-#*=..-=%===+*=--::::*#****++++ @=--=-=.....---=*@=---....::@# #-++=-.......:=-=+=---@......::- *----:.......:::-=@@:::......:::-- ===+:......:.::::--::::.....:::::-@ =++:.::::::::::--=--::::::::::::--: =--::::::::-==++=-:::::--::::--: `

``` _= _#`{#_ #* # `#_ _[__ # _]#_ _#?[``**##*` #*= =* [ =*#`#_ ], #_ _# [_* ] `#_} _#_ _#`{`*+##__ ], __]##``#*#_ _* } _#`} ``*##*` #`*,`\ *= #_ ##` # _=* #*#_ [ *#_-#* `**=#__ #=* # *#__=^*` ``*#~___ # _,=*` ``*^*` ```

Wonder how you quote

triple `?

yes just ```

``` + #######=#=*@ +-@###########+* =-#*++#*#+*+*@+@@ #=*%%##%%##%##**% .#*#%****#@%@%*##%# @#**@%@%==--@.*@#-@%% @@##@#%+=#=--:*-*#@#%% #@@%#%#+-:*:--*+%=@%% @ %#%%%=--#+@-=#%%%% ##%%%@#-:::%#@%% #@%@%%*##*@#%% @+=@===#++%=@##=@*+-+-*- -=*#---**-=--=-=#*+*.=+---- ##*%+-========-@:-@***+====== =#-#*=..-=%===+*=--::::*#****++++ @=--=-=.....---=*@=---....::@# #-++=-.......:=-=+=---@......::- *----:.......:::-=@@:::......:::-- ===+:......:.::::--::::.....:::::-@ =++:.::::::::::--=--::::::::::::--: =--::::::::-==++=-:::::--::::--: ```

Oh it works

``` + #######=#=*@ +-@###########+* =-#*++#*#+*+*@+@@ #=*%%##%%##%##**% .#*#%****#@%@%*##%# @#**@%@%==--@.*@#-@%% @@##@#%+=#=--:*-*#@#%% #@@%#%#+-:*:--*+%=@%% @ %#%%%=--#+@-=#%%%% ##%%%@#-:::%#@%% #@%@%%*##*@#%% @+=@===#++%=@##=@*+-+-*- -=*#---**-=--=-=#*+*.=+---- ##*%+-========-@:-@***+====== =#-#*=..-=%===+*=--::::*#****++++ @=--=-=.....---=*@=---....::@# #-++=-.......:=-=+=---@......::- *----:.......:::-=@@:::......:::-- ===+:......:.::::--::::.....:::::-@ =++:.::::::::::--=--::::::::::::--: =--::::::::-==++=-:::::--::::--: ```