JPEG XL

This is for suggestions on this discord (new channels you would like to have, etc). Suggestions related to jxl itself are better discussed in the relevant channel (probably <#794206170445119489> or maybe <#803574970180829194> ).

Remove the role permission from people to post in <#803379415106584626> :p

Might also be a good idea to trace back where you posted the old invite link that auto kicks members and replace it with a new one that doesn't

Roles: - core dev: works on jxl itself (codec design, libjxl development) - dev: works on any image-related software and has added or is interested in adding jxl support to it - evangelist: likes to spread the word about jxl, maybe creates demos or benchmarks - early adopter: interested in the project, has tried it out in one way or another How does that look as roles for this server? Any others that should be there? If you want to get one of these roles, please pm me.

renaming evangelist to enthusiast, sounds a bit less biblical and zealous 🙂

Ok so it's now - core dev - dev - early adopter are manually assigned, and then there are roles auto-given by a bot based on activity: - enthusiast - curious - noob

Have `bot-spam` channel, and move outputs of all bots to it

you can set up a reddit discord bot to be alerted any time a new post is made in a subreddit

We used YAGPDB.xyz bot to do the subreddit posts (to their own #subreddit channel) in my other Discord server

I think we need more visible/aggressive colors for the more important roles and neutral colors for normal users, like something from blue/green for early adopter/enthusiast/... and yellow/orange/red for core dev/dev/moderators. With the current purple for early adopter, it's harder to read and recognize nicknames and it's also more aggressive than core dev.

Just like <#808692065076379699> is designated so it's treated by Discord specially (e.g. it has its own icon), you can do the same with <#805062027433345044> and <#805722506517807104> channels so they've also got their own "announcement" icons, only bots could post there and there would be special options to follow the channels instead of message writing panel.

And that's how "announcement" channel looks like on other server:

Eventually it will be possible to enable Community Server <https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/360047132851-Enabling-Your-Community-Server> (but this may require additional moderators). Also as far as I know if the server has a certain number of users or there are official representatives/developers of something significant (and Jpeg XL fits that role), it's possible to get a nice URL like discord .gg/jxl (without boosters) and a confirmation that it is an official server. <https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001107231>

> 2FA Requirement For Moderation Enabled Ah, I see you're a man of culture as well.

So we just need to grow our community?

How many members do we have now?

98ish

Seems like you've properly changed <#803379415106584626> channel's type to, well, "Announcements". IMHO <#805062027433345044> and <#805722506517807104> deserve same treatment, just like I said before.

Maybe have a separate group for the bots?

Well, if we have introduce yourself.. can we have dating channel? I would like bound with someone who likes same codecs as me <:cmon:798146744936300556>

Hell yeah!

dating can be done in <#806898911091753051> / pm, no?

it can but it should?

anything goes in <#806898911091753051> , except on-topic stuff

Dating in <:JXL:805850130203934781> server <a:dogescared:749458017954562058>

https://discord.com/channels/794206087879852103/794206087879852106/804012611364585512

Cursed

Can we have short name for butteraugli? I need to google up proper name every time)

I sometimes say BA

Call butter eye? I wanted more vowels than there are in PSNRHVS-M and MS-SSIM-YUV, an association with the human eye... and with a small bread (gipfeli, zopfli, brotli). I deliberately chose an overly complex term to avoid creating homonym noise for something as specific as this. Voisilmäpulla, Finnish butter eye buns, translated to German is something like Butteraugebrötchen, and I took the liberty to invent a new pseudo-Swiss-German word from it, and butteraugli was born. http://www.food.com/recipe/finnish-butter-eye-buns-voisilm-pulla-326192 -- Tasty with filter coffee. https://encode.su/threads/2395-SSIM-MSSIM-vs-MSE?p=47367&viewfull=1#post47367

no butteraugli is better

I've noticed that people here often don't use the Discord's "Reply" feature and thus it's not obvious what they respond to. Shouldn't we somehow promote using this feature more?

I'm not sure — it's not always useful 🙂

Yep, not always. But if there are more topics at the same time…

Agreed — as a guideline you could say using reply is useful if there are one or more intermediate comments about a different topic than the one you're replying to. I don't think it should be a "rule" though. It might even be better to just avoid talking about multiple topics at the same time in the same channel, and instead of potentially derailing a conversation, use a different channel if you want to talk about a different topic while people are chatting about something.

Any channel like #news or #media-coverage?

Made <#822105409312653333>

Not only for press articles, but for anything that can help JPEG XL get to the general public (e.g. Wikipedia articles)

Yes, dunno what a good channel name for that is

dissimenation?

publications?

popularization?

communication?

not that one, too much like adoption

promotion?

PR?

**THIS**

I think a lot of separate channels is not always convenient, jxl/adoption/on-topic also cover articles about JXL, and often the discussion in some thematic channel goes beyond the topic (and there is nothing to change it, except a hard moderation)

I think all that technical stuff from Fabian about writing the Wikipedia article would fit quite well into that new channel. It's not really about JXL itself, but more about Wikipedia.

i think discussions should not be allowed in press coverage

Yep, but such a thing can be in any channel at some time, for example in the benchmarks there are many posts not related to comparisons (also Fabian is currently interested in Wikipedia, but that may change quickly and there will also be a lot of posts on a completely different topic)

But those discussions at least probably started from benchmarking (lossy or lossless) and ideas for making compression better, which is quite related to benchmarking.

I don't think it's good idea. We can post links that Jon couldn't find on his own (because they were on websites too niche or even created by us) and discuss making new articles. Your posts about fixing Wikipedia articles could fit on <#822105409312653333> channel.

i don0't want promotion, why don't write in the first channel

Maybe <#822105409312653333> is not an ideal name because I also want to see articles that don't promote jxl but bash it 🙂

<#822105409312653333> is still ok, but maybe it would be better if there were only links to articles and mentions, and the discussion of editing Wikipedia is also part of the general topic of conversation in <#794206170445119489> Like if we count <#794206170445119489> as a general discussion <#822105409312653333> channel where all links will be stuffed with discussions will not differ from the usual <#794206170445119489> by the convenience of finding some articles

I think #coverage will be better name then. "Negative promotion" is IMHO an oxymoron, but coverage can be both positive and negative.

I thought <#794206170445119489> would be more for discussions about internal workings of JPEG XL, like "how patches work", "what's the difference between dots and patches" etc.

We need more channels! <:ugly:805106754668068868>

Of the really necessary channels, I think it would be nice to have #faq, with all the main links, viewers, comparisons, and very common questions (and without discussion) Because new people are constantly asking what apps can open/view jxl, where to get an encoder for Windows, and yes <https://sneyers.info/jxl/> is pretty good at covering general stuff (but even that link still needs to be found)

https://sneyers.info/jxl acts like a rudimentary FAQ 😉

We have <#803379415106584626> but maybe people don't go there. Rename it to #faq or #info or #pointers or something like that?

#faq is better to be with messages that fit on one page and everything important would always be visible on first viewing <#803379415106584626> are also needed, but for a different purpose, for the most important things and releases related to JXL (for example, certain people do not read the channel every day, but the most important things they would like to know)

People barely go to <#803379415106584626>, because there are few announcements, because there are (currently) few reasons to make them.

Ok I'll make a #faq, feel free to put useful questions/answers/pointers there

It's open to anyone for now, I'll close it later

I think it would be better to have one or only a few posts from several people (and then edit them if needed additions and changes)

I can delete messages so don't worry to put stuff there. Maybe I'll indeed turn it into a single post afterwards so it takes less vertical space

Is Dr. Frederik Temmermans around? I'd have a suggestion for him.

I don't know if he is on discord. I can pass the message though, or you can mail him.

I emailed him couple weeks ago and haven't got any reply yet (it could be the email system fail though – I dunno).

My suggestion was to remove "/index.html" from links on https://jpeg.org to improve the professional look of the site and to simplify sharing the links (especially when dictating them).

i'll pass the suggestion

why don't add a page for social/sites that can open/convert jxl modular when there is all in firefox and chrome? but without linking only the names extremely moderated

I don't understand what you mean, Fabian

I think he means a website in which you can throw a PNG/JPEG file and have it output a JPEG-XL encoded file.

You can do that with a free cloudinary account

or just use mine: `res.cloudinary.com/jon/image/fetch/f_jxl,q_80/[URL TO WHATEVER INPUT IMAGE GOES HERE]`

Finally, an easy-to-use JPEG 2000 encoder :)

ah, I think Fabian means a list of websites that can either accept or serve JXL

for example a page where we say “Imgur supports JPEG XL” once it is the case

At the moment, I only know of Cloudinary supporting jxl input/output (so also any site that uses Cloudinary to process user-uploaded images). Are there any others?

no, fine

I could add Cloudinary to the <#822120855449894942> as "online platforms supporting jxl", but feels a bit like self-promotion 🙂

<@!416586441058025472> I am surprised that you feel so strongly about not including links, is there a particular reason for that?

social separated would be better as INFO, but people don't agree because they care about the codec and not about social media support and the DEV don't like dedicating a channel to social either because even if it's extremely moderated, he has to include names of other sites

to me as long is moderated it will not be bad but nobody other than me is making a request of it, they think <#803574970180829194> is good enough.

but honestly a channel to talk of Facebook, while dev mentioned that they are helping facebook research, for example it would be good to have a separate channel (to talk about modular mode support for the supported input) for me isn't spam as long is moderated.

this

so, uh, adoptation in services versus adoptation in tools

but then, isn't there tools channel for adoptation in tools

right

The JPEG XL tree challenge, make art that can be simply done in JPEG XL(like ones in <#824000991891554375> ) but is really hard to compress with png/jpeg , winner will be decided by voting

I like that idea. Do we need a real prize or is just being the winner of this prestigious new contest good enough as a prize?

in the av1 discord there's a fancy role for the challenge winner

Like this <:kekw:808717074305122316>

The winner should have 'The Lorax' role

https://c.tenor.com/GJGRlQAw_PgAAAAM/lorax-the-lorax.gif

Can we have a #fabian-spam channel? ^^

<:WhiteFoxLaugh:785019903614386238>

checking the alb, still level 24 after finishing deleting messages

I remake the suggestion can we make a social jxl channel or better called press news social on the bottom of coverage

I think <#822105409312653333> is ok for that

ok

Give the core developers a 'core dev' flair on the subreddit

Ugh I don't have permissions on the jxl reddit to do much (I can do some moderation but not much more). Does anyone know the admin there?

<#794206170445119489> is for anything about JXL, at least that's better organized than the discussion about patches in <#806898911091753051> 🤔

I don't think it's worth actively moderating discussion beyond the self-moderation the community already provides, unless there's an extraordinary issue.

<#794206087879852106> was originally <#806898911091753051> , then kept getting dragged off the purposes and renamed until it came to it's name today. As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law, everything eventually becomes <#806898911091753051> and off-topic becomes <#794206087879852106>

I don't think there was any need for <#840831132009365514> other than Fabian's posts, especially since he writes them in other channels anyway Besides, the only encoding parameters doesn't make any sense if the result is not compared with something else (like other formats and options), and there are <#803645746661425173> for that

Yes, I think <#840831132009365514> should be redundant, but Fabian's posts alone created some demand for a place to dump encode experiments with less direction than a benchmark.

It's hard to let discussions take place in the appropriate channels, especially because it's not nice to break the natural flow of a conversation when its topic is evolving. I don't feel like strongly policing it helps much, that just adds noise. Starting new discussions in the right channel should be somehow encouraged though.

The creation of the channel was fair, based on 1-3 (which is what I meant in the quoted comment). 6 is an unnecessary assumption.

Maybe a role for every installed OS and browser? That'd make it possible to mass-ping relevant users in case of new functions, issues, (critical) bugs or any testing. For example I've just written a (hopefully working) guide for permanently enabling JPEG XL in the latest Edge 91. With those roles I could just ping \@Edge for every Edge owner to test my guide if it's working.

Uhhhhhh

uhhhh

you can't hide what you just did

<:YEP:808828808127971399>

<:ping:396875276023365642>

o.o

I was pinged?

I've done EXACTLY THIS (those backslashes before @), but apparently Discord on Android is retarded

Don't forget to set `Suppress everyone and here` in every server you don't want to accidentally get pinged in, for the future

Why am I always getting pinged?

<:tfw:843857104439607327>

https://tenor.com/view/nothingtosee-disperse-casual-explosion-gif-4545906

who ping

<@456226577798135808>

Haha ok I will disable that

it still appears to be enabled_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_*\‭*_\‭_ <@!794205442175402004>

it's fixed

Yeah I had to disable it on all roles

btw if you want to know how i pinged you without a ping it's a discord desktop issue with the truncation of excessive whitespace

Now only dev and core dev can ping everyone and here

sounds good <:Hypers:808826266060193874>

mouha haha, unlimited power!

https://c.tenor.com/wAlwwuzXF74AAAAM/marvel-spiderman.gif

https://c.tenor.com/LvTAs9cqv-0AAAAM/great-power-great-electricity-bill.gif

I consider it is better to allow abuse of delta palette, lz77, patches, predictors, layering, 256x256 dcts and trees -- all at once, i.e., no limits competition

weren't 256x256 not implemented in the encoder?

Yes, any-valid-bitstream is the best category. Encourages trying new tricks 😁

all dcts are implemented in the encoder and decoder

the current heuristic in the encoder never emits transforms bigger than 64x64

ac_strategy.cc

The Utilibot is outside the BOT Category and posing as a human <:CatBlobPolice:805388337862279198>

mute <@!856560637986209862> for a bit

keep up the good work, paypig

#img-samples

*Tasty* country roles? For example: Baguette 🥖 🇫🇷, Ravioli 🤌 🇮🇹, Pierogi 🥟 🇵🇱, Rice 🍚 🇨🇳, Sushi 🍣 🇯🇵, Hamburger 🍔 🇺🇸 You can remove additional emojis, but at least keep the flags (if role names allow it).

for what purpose

Just as a fun fact where everyone comes from, there are e.g. continental roles on much bigger servers

I doubt they'd serve any useful purpose, there's no mechanic to verify and it's effort to set them, and you didn't include my obscure country either...

i think u didn't even include all countries devs are from lol

The countries above are just an example, there'll be more of them of course if the proposal gets accepted

no the server should be dedicated for the devs, i do not agree

if you can limit this to off-topic it'd make sense otherwise no

Country list might be useful at some point, here's a (more standardized) role list from the Lost Media Wiki server

nah plz keep this server smol and english speaking thx

It's interesting to know who is from where, but roles are maybe a bit of overkill. Can also just ask about it.

Like what I just did in <#803605943338008586>

Oh, that's nice, thanks! 😃

I didn't fill that in :v)

seems like not yet, hopefully soon <:dorime:818573792585580585>

I can see button for threads on discord Android

it is now

But I would not recommend creating threads that do not imply long discussion or topics that do not need a long retention in the history or some short questions (except maybe <#806898911091753051> channel), it is better to do this in general channels, because many individual threads are much harder to read and later they will be a problem to find the really necessary threads

also i think threads should not be used to discussed something like the random 4chan comments giving by whatever normal user. is not interesting but that's not the point. when you create a comment in discord there is a straight line bar, just write below the comment is enough. Why overcomplicate things that are simple? you can talk in <#794206170445119489> and if there is a source on <#822105409312653333>. That's for mai minase suggestion.

<:Hsss:806131225278152756>

I think the JXL Windows builds in <#808692065076379699> can now link to GitHub actions now we have CI build artifacts

or to https://artifacts.lucaversari.it/libjxl/libjxl/latest 😛

(the link was added to jpegxl.info)

Awesome

I'll ask the owner of that subreddit

And please also a "warning" flair for Fabian. ^^

Currently it looks like: > fabiorug -8 points 2 hours ago But if there are flairs, it can look like: > fabiorug [CAUTION] -8 points 2 hours ago

he doesn't need mere caution flare. he deserves his own named flare

But I think it would be hard to find someone else who deserves this accolade. <:kekw:808717074305122316>

No discrimination about and such only jon can decide anyway i m not worried about the downvotes. If i have right to post i do not want flare for stupid People. i want same categories of post as the server

Youre not funny

I cannot decide much at all about the /r/jpegxl/ subreddit, I am not an administrator of it (the admin gave me moderator rights but there's not that much you can do with those)

nop

wlep i sent it as a modmail <:kekw:808717074305122316>

do you need [CAUTION] when -8 points 2 hours ago speaks for itself as much as I think that's funny, I feel like adding a specific flare to shun a particular user is lame on principle

Yeah, not gonna do that. A thing to recognize devs might be useful though.

It's just a joke.

make the @admin role mentionable

Done

Flairs have been enabled in the jxl reddit; if there are any devs on reddit please ping me here or on reddit

hello I am redditor

<https://old.reddit.com/user/janwas_>

Not sure where exactly to post feature suggestions, so posted here some feedback about splines: https://discord.com/channels/794206087879852103/824000991891554375/890044546765951026

Why is there a general <#794206087879852106> channel, and a <#794206170445119489> one? What can be on topic, but not jxl? 🤔

coding, compression methods, something like browser features related to images what aint strictly jxl related, etc

A role for Rustaceans? <:rust:854096515727753266>

Do I understand right that if I can compress jxl file further with gzip and it`s smaller it means possibly it can be compressed more efficiently with jxl encoder? (lossless settings)

Likely, yes. Do you have examples where this happens? (and maybe let's move to <#794206170445119489> or <#804324493420920833> or <#794206087879852106>, this channel is for suggestions for the discord server)

<@794205442175402004>Sorry , thought sugg. for jxl, will give sample later

Yeah, gzip is lossless compression. So if you can get a noticeably smaller jxl.gz file, that's likely a bug as jxl should be losslessly compressing everything it can.

Suggestion for a spec extension / bit of a long shot: Allow horizontal and vertical flips of patches. The point is that you've already done the work by defining mirrored coordinates - so keep the source coordinates of the patch normal but allow the destination coordinates to be mirrored. It's not _really_ a bitstream change...

I suggest making the *set* function if the Modular encoder detects one color in the palette (from 53 byte to 21 byte with 800x600)

"we at some point thought about adding that but it's basically more signaling cost for questionable gain" - Jon https://discord.com/channels/794206087879852103/803645746661425173/837326151034601482

thanks, i hadn't seen that

the recent follow up was in the 'Specification issues' channel. not sure why linking to it isn't working for me, sorry

https://discord.com/channels/794206087879852103/1021189485960114198/1039644979246674001

ta. i got a screen shake when i tried pasting.

suggest QOI decoder in libjxl

it's just that QOI is very small, and in general I would like it to be only in libjxl-tiny. because pfm alone is not very good of only one input variant. BUT given the small of PFM and QOI, it would be possible to convert QOI to PFM right inside libjxl-tiny... In any case, this is just a suggestion.

Well since qoi is such a simple format, it should take no time at all for someone to write a patch! ;)

QOI supports alpha and libjxl-tiny doesn't, since it's intended for cameras. QOI only supports 8-bit while libjxl-tiny does support higher bit depth, since that is relevant for cameras. So I don't think it's a very good match. In any case, libjxl-tiny is not really meant to be used by end-users, it's more for testing and having a starting point for the development of a hardware encoder.

forget about what I suggested, it doesn't make sense anymore, JPEG XL killed QOI by adding FJXL as the flag -e 1, there is no sense in QOI for anything anymore.

Well it's a nice experimental toy format.

It might be useful for embedded systems, like those run by a simple microcontroller.

Would be nicer if it supported high bit depth and color profiles.

Which you don't need on embedded systems.

There is absolutely no reason why HDR would be any less relevant on embedded systems than anywhere else. It depends on how common HDR content and playback is.

Maybe one day you will have a HDR screen on your washing machine but I don't think it's the priority.

An embedded device can mean anything.

In the context of displaying still images, an embedded device would probably mean, say for example, digital signage. Including very big and expensive screens and digital posters and billboards.

Basically whether you are using an "embedded device" or a general-purpose PC, it makes no difference to the relevance of HDR.

Those are using a full featured computer running an operating system. I was talking about microcontrollers that have few kilobytes of ROM and RAM.

Small embedded SoCs are usually driving such displays

We're talking about something similar to a Chromecast device.

As HDR becomes more common in other places such as consumer PCs, it will also become more of a common and expected feature to have on embedded systems too.

Alright but such system is closer to a smartphone than a digital thermometer.

But even digital thermometer could display small icons and graphics.

For sure... but it's still an embedded system, in the sense that it is running in a resource and power constrained environment using a custom software environment (and rarely a custom hardware environment too)

You still have the issue of maintaining a browser, and all the jazz that comes with that. Plus compiling chromium (just compiling it) takes ages on a standard CPU

I mean, just rebasing with upstream and only keeping jxl in should not be that much effort. Especially if they're already doing that with Thorium or some other chromium fork.

idea: create easy to apply/use patches and or pre-patched versions of chromium based projects/programs such as Electron and CEF to add back and enable JXL support so devs can easily integrate JPEG-XL support into their web based programs.

a large majority of devs are very unlikely to look at chromium removing jpeg-xl and think "Ill just make a fork and revert the changes and port them to a newer version of chromium/CEF/Electron manually" but having a repo or place dedicated to making it easy to bring back JXL support with a patch files would give an Incentive for devs to add JXL support back into their web apps since then the thought of "sucks that chromium removed JXL now I can't use it in my web app" to "sucks that chromium removed JXL support but oh look heres a patch I can apply to my project or build/compile setup to add it back"

this suggestion isn't something necessarily meant as something for the main devs of JPEG-XL to do and maintain I'm just trying to put the idea out there and hope that someone picks it up

It feels unfortunate to block words (of any kind), because they might be used entirely legitimately.

then it just becomes a race when they start doing leetspeak

No, as soon as you start doing that they immediately start using similar-looking characters to get around crude keyword blocking like that

Notice they already replace "BTC" with other chars to get around previous crude attempts to block that word

Couldnt one also have jxl support as a node js module? For electron?

fab channel

😄

I have a bonk channel @bonk Is an user in another server

we could make a channel bonk here

I reversed JPEG XL

LX GEPJ

supports no progressive decoding bigger than other files doesn't support lossless jpeg recompression no animation no standard reference decoder

Congratulations, you invented BMP

um actually

well strictly speaking BMP supports lossless jpeg recompression

cause it allows jpeg compression as one of its compression types

but it won't make it smaller

I think I’d call that lossless jpeg storage

AFAIK this is not intended for file storage, rather is used by WinApi graphics functions to describe images. The bitmap header in memory can be separate from the image data.

That's basically just using jpeg as a payload codec in a container. Lots of things can do that: PDF, DICOM, MP4, HEIF, ...

Not sure if we should have a template for questions — it's ok if people ask questions there, but github issues are really meant for reporting issues, not for asking questions. It's not a forum, it's a bug tracker. I think it's better if people ask questions here on discord, or on reddit. Adding a template for questions will give the wrong impression that it's a good idea to use github issues for that.

Lots of people are using GitHub as a forum but it's totally discouraged.

maybe GitHub Discussions can be enabled for questions

To clarify what I meant: it is OK to use github issues to ask "advanced" questions (about things that are not documented well, indicating possible gaps in the docs), or to have forum-like discussions about things like how the API should behave etc. Just not for basic stuff for which the answer can be found quite easily.

I'm not familiar with GitHub Discussions but yes, maybe we should enable it. Any thoughts, <@795684063032901642> <@179701849576833024> ? Seems like a good way to avoid some of the clutter in our issues...

A question yesterday titled "I have a question!"

to be precies, the title was "请教个问题!", which is even worse as an issue title on a repo where the working language is English

It's like asking a question towards a teacher in an elementary school. I had the similar experiences

Redirect to docs/discussion platforms, then close the issue immediately.

Why not...

I don’t get it, Google translate exists, doesn’t it?

It does but it adds an unnecessary hurdle that should be taken by the issue opener, not the issue viewer.

I think it's kinda rude to join an international project, use non-English language and expect others to understand it.

Hey everyone, not sure where to put this, but there's also a Lemmy community for jxl, if you don't want to use Reddit https://lemmy.world/c/jpegxl

The casual name for a JXL becomes X-file.

If Jon Sneyers was replaced by Elon Musk

Community website should include Lemmy and Matrix links I think.

Also no idea how this site is supposed to work on mobile but when I open it in either the default browser or Firefox in Android 14 (LineageOS) on a Poco F1 and I press on the hamburger icon, the icons for the communities aren't visible and the thing closes on a scrolling attempt.

2 issues with matrix bridging in general i've found after moderating a good amount of servers with them, discord and tgram * all the bridges are trash * matrix has a massive spam problem

First thing is a problem hugely due to Discord (however there is also not that much effort put in by Matrix people currently) and the second thing is something I don't really think is that big and I would say Discord is worse. Had a Matrix room with 5k+ people and room picture with rainbow flag on the matrix.org list + on several other room lists of other popular servers for quite a bit of time (removed by accident a few weeks ago from the matrix.org one however, heh) and only every few weeks some account joined that either advertised some drug channel or that was just toxic. Meanwhile several other, way smaller rooms with niche topics never got visits from those.

We had quite a lot of cryptospam coming through the Matrix bridge here, back when it still worked...

1. I would be more inclined to believe this if every bridge service didn't suck, tgram/matrix/irc etc. but even without that, it doesn't change that it sucks 2. I would be more inclined to believe this but every server i've been on that used a matrix bridge, it has been a massive issue, even on the services I use that's still bridged, being BlissOS and waydroid tgrams, we still get spam often. everything else we have killed the bridge for, and it's been great ever since

Interesting. That's something I'm not sure I ever saw on Matrix. Some other money scam yes however but that was a few times via DM iirc. (Maybe the drug ads also lead to some money scam but not counting since I'm not sure not sure about that) Maybe JXL just has some bad luck since it seems to be a crypro token is also named JXL... but in that case, changing the room name and links to enter it could help a bit.

rename `--allow_expert_options` to `--allow_novice_options`

Set effort 11 as the default

someone should make a crypto token called "microsoft"

Maybe it would be a good idea to set up the automod on the subreddit to inform people that there is a discord where they can ask their questions

they should ask there. reddit is public and benefits everyone interested, discord is a walled garden that cannot be searched, revisited or even read without creating an account

whatever works is good, just saying that the flow of discussion should actually reverse. reddit needs more of the goodness were discussing featured there

Discord server mirror?

I agree 100%, but since we are not all migrating to reddit it would be beneficial to at least inform posters that this discord exists when they open a thread

A blind test for an image format is a challenge 🤔

It's gonna be fun 😊

diffs against originals can be normalized so differences and their nature are massively amplified

There are too many different channels to keep track of on this server. Way more than there needs to be,

<#822105409312653333> and <#803574970180829194> seem like they can be the same <#840831132009365514> could be part of <#803645746661425173> this channel ( <#804008033595162635> ) could possibly be part of <#848189884614705192>

Maybe website-suggestions and discord-suggestions would be better nanes for <#1256302117379903498> and <#804008033595162635>

<#803605943338008586> could be merged into <#809126648816336917> I guess

<#794206170445119489> <#804324493420920833> <#803663417881395200> <#794206087879852106> doesn't need 4 separate channels

Just way too much...

We are not quite using channels the way they are supposed to be used. <#822105409312653333> is supposed to be just to post links to new press articles etc, <#803574970180829194> is for news related to new software or companies or whatever adopting jxl (or not). Maybe the channels need a clearer description and a bit more checking that they remain within their topic.

We are using channels as expected. They are designed to facilitate dialogue. The community self-regulates, further enforcement would be time-consuming and disruptive, so not worth worrying about generally. Whether a channel is distinctive and useful is another question, but the user can customize their experience, muting or hiding undesired channels, so this issue is also mitigated.

Yes, this is why I generally don't try to enforce channel topics strictly. Conversations can start somewhere and then go somewhere else and that's fine, no need to move things to another channel all the time.

The <#847067365891244042> channel should also track the rust decoder as well

⬆️ Again, it would be nice if jxl-rs was tracked ⬆️

It should include jxl-rs

done

it might be a bit too verbose currently or tracking too much because right now <#847067365891244042> is getting sorta flooded

Actions reports need to be disabled

right, I'll track the same events that are tracked on the libjxl repo

tracking <https://github.com/google/jpegli> would be nice too, even now there aren't much updates yet, but maybe someday, there are a lot of unmerged prs and it's somewhat related to libjxl

Any changes to the google repo should be mirrored on libjxl and vice versa, so probably redundant

but it didn't work after the repo split, like new PRs and such, as far as I remember

I mean they *should* be, not that it ever did automatically. Right now they're not even synced, and there's our pending PRs that fix some major issues with it

Unfortunately I think only <@811568887577444363> has permissions for the google jpegli repo, so any changes have to go through him first. Maybe a few more core libjxl developers could be set as maintainers to get the repos synced and PRs merged?

add matrix mirror pls

don't we already have one? (or at least _did have_)

Idk

abandoned due to moderation overhead

Too much spam was coming from it

Or they should be combined in one repo, and just make the build system easier to separately compile them.

Maintaining 2 redundant repos of the same code is a horribly confusing idea. It's way simpler to just update the build system and readme to make it easier for packagers to compile and install the jpeg library separately.

.ljxl (lossless jpegxl), .ajxl (animated jxl) file extensions (as png/gif/apng)

gif/agif webp/lwebp/awebp

lavif/aavif

apng used to be a separate format, though

using one format for lossy/lossless/animation kinda confusing

There's no guarantee it is lossless anyway

Yeah GIF, JPEG and PNG are all confusing

huh? gif for animation, jpeg for photo, png for simple images/lossless compression (it not confusing, pretty specialized formats, but they all are worse than jpegxl)

GIF and PNG can both be static, lossless, lossy and animated. It all depends on how the files were made. If anything just having JXL avoids assumptions about what the file is

I would rather never allow GIF animation

yes, element of surprice, but usually png is lossless static, gif is animation, and apng which just better than gif (but nobody use it, even if browser supports it)

why? how i will shitpost short low-quality loops?

So can JPEG

this is sort of an issue with PNG already. a lot of PNGs you'll find online are actually of images that have been lossily compressed in a previous generation, possibly multiple times. though I agree that seeing a distinction between lossy and lossless just from the extension would be a useful optional feature if people started doing that. and I think people can just start doing that, at least on operating systems that don't care about the extension of a file, like Linux - even if this might not comply with the JPEG XL specification, but I'm not sure whether JXL files with a wrong extension are considered noncompliant. the `jxlinfo` command can also tell you if a file is lossless or lossy, and this could probably be integrated into file browsers when showing the file properties ``` JPEG XL image, 36450x17700, (possibly) lossless, 8-bit RGB ```

Most of the jxl spec doesn't care at all about filenames/extensions. The only place where it is mentioned is in ISO/IEC 18181-2 Annex B which is the IANA media type registration for image/jxl; there it is specified that the extension is `jxl`.

"Lossless" is not a property of a file but of a workflow, and it depends on the specifics of the workflow what 'lossless' even means, e.g. an 8-bit image in PNG can be considered lossless in one workflow while the exact same file can be considered a very lossy "delivery export" in another workflow (e.g. if production is working in high-precision, high-res HDR and you're exporting a tone mapped, downscaled 8-bit sRGB version). And then of course nothing prevents people from opening crappy low-quality jpegs in an image editor and saving them with high bit depth and 'losslessly'. So it is just kind of impossible to make a clear binary distinction between lossy and lossless. Two different extensions to me sounds as useful as having `.ddoc` and `.fdoc` as different extensions for draft documents and final documents. To keep track of workflows, e.g. provenance and manipulation/transcoding history, something like C2PA (as used in JPEG Trust) is way more useful.

I'm already distributing `.ljxl` as lossy JXL. `.jxl` is lossless.

it's great for avoiding confusion that "lossy" and "lossless" start with different letters

I think that as people start to adopt JPEG XL the distinction between lossless and lossy will become less important. PNGs can be lossless and transparent, while JPEG doesn't support transparency and will necessarily have artifacts in flat synthetic images. so, often, whether you need JPEG or PNG is as clear cut as: this is a screenshot with text, so I need a PNG version. I need transparency, so I need a PNG. this is a photograph, so JPEG is fine. this is a game screenshot with little text and no transparency, so JPEG is fine. JXL can preserve letters in text by losslessly encoding them as patches and patching them into an otherwise lossy image (the encoder already does this by default). JXL supports transparency regardless of whether you're doing lossless or lossy. JXL can encode a lossy screenshot of the game with a transparent lossless frame for the UI, preserving clean and precise UI elements while not wasting bits on losslessly preserving the image of the game world which may as well be a photographic image. I think we're going to tend towards visually inspecting an image to see if it's good enough for our use case, instead of assuming implicit properties which may or may not be true based on a file extension

but I also understand the desire for a clear lossy/lossless distinction in the file name because that's what we're used to

who is "we"?

humanity

that's pretty vague. seems at least some slice of humanity which is savvy enough to be familiar with the high level concepts, but not savvy enough to understand the practice. I am not sure how large such a population is or really how affected they are by their assumptions, but I'd guess disrupting their incoherent worldview doesn't matter.

maybe we can solve this by instead using the first letter that differs for each, so `y` and `l`… er, never mind

(actually, the _last_ letter kind of works, though)

`.jxly` `.jxls`

with two letters, `ll` and `ly`, it's relatively clear if you mean lossless or lossy. But again, what's considered lossless in one workflow can be considered lossy in another, so I don't think it makes sense to use different extensions, even if it would somehow be possible to make everyone follow such a convention. E.g. a losslessly recompressed JPEG: if it came straight from a camera that doesn't support raw, that file would be as lossless as it gets, but of the JPEG you started with was a q30 thumbnail then of course no sane person would call it lossless. Where to draw such boundaries is not clear.

maybe it would make sense to brand jxl-compressed DNGs as “raw XL”, though

it sounds powerful

`.pjxl` for 'preserving' compression, and `.cjxl` for 'compromising' compression additionally it helps that people associate **P**NG with lossless files

It would've been even more powerful if they had used the dedicated Bayer channel type... (Maybe we should move channel due to Slowmode)

`jxlossy` and `jxlossless` if you can spare the extra characters, and `jxloss` reserved specifically for that stupid comic people keep posting as a joke

do we have jxl art for that, by the way?

jxll for jxl with loss and jxlll for jxl with less loss (lossless?) https://discord.com/channels/794206087879852103/824000991891554375/825379173484331029

may I propose

it sounds like something you might find in a sex shop 😂

we have all the coding tools, and our top scientists are currently figuring out how to use them. and our bottom scientists, well... they're helping too